How to Talk to People Who Think Differently (and Have Hard Conversations) with Michael Ashford

  Welcome to the Outsmart ADHD podcast. I'm your host, Jamie Cutino, board certified occupational therapist, two time TED speaker, ADHD coach, ADHD advocate, and reality show contestant. Now, let's talk about ADHD.

 Hello, my friends. Today, we've got a guest that you may have heard of before a few episodes back. We've got Michael Ashford here. He is my speaker coach. He is who was my speaker coach through my last TEDx talk. He's helped me to get to prep for my Bye. Keynotes and workshops. He's also a speaking and communication coach, which is why I hired him.

He is the author of the book. Can I ask a question? And also the host of the Rethinking Communication podcast and friends. I sent Michael and Email, it was not long after the election. And I'm like, Michael, what the fuck do I do with all of this separation of people? How, like, you know, who do you give energy to?

Well, how do you even begin to bring people together? Like, what the fuck do I do here? And In the midst of, like, fear because of what's going on around me, I felt like I had to take action. I'm not sure what to do, what action to take, and I knew that Michael was the person to talk to about this specifically because of your podcast and the things that you had shared with me of people you've spoken to on your podcast who had completely polarized thoughts on something, but then at the core, they thought the same thing.

And I could talk seven for 17 minutes on the intro, but they're not tuning in to listen to me. They want to listen to you, Michael. So how are you doing? Oh, Jamie, I'm wonderful. Can you give a SparkNotes version of what your TEDx talks were about? And I'm kind of the worst client in the world because I did not watch your TEDx talks until I emailed you that night.

And I'm so sorry. And you know, it's not because I don't, that I don't care about you. I care about you tremendously. I just hadn't listened to them before, but they were so impactful. Can you give us a little Sparknose version of, you're welcome, of, of your talks? I sure can, or at least I can try, right?

Yes. So what's interesting is, and I didn't even initially plan it this way, but it just worked out this way. My first TEDx talk actually is The first chapter of the book or, or the first chapter of the book is a an expansion on my first TEDx talk. And the second TEDx talk is actually the last chapter.

And so the book then fills in the middle, the middle gaps there. But the first one was. I was in a similar situation to you in July of 2020, in, in summer of 2020, where we were going through a presidential election in that year, it was covid year. A lot of the a lot of the racial reckoning that happened in the wake of the ah, Maud Arbery and George Floyd murders was, was spreading throughout really the world, not just here in the United States.

Mm-hmm . And just feeling this overwhelming sense of, well, what can I do? Like I'm, I'm concerned about all these things. I, I see what's happening. I see the news and I feel helpless to be able to do anything about it, but I feel this tug that I should be doing something. Yeah. So I did what I do best. I'm a former journalist and I know how to ask questions.

And so I just started, I started a podcast. I started reaching out to people who I thought could share an experience of the world that perhaps others hadn't considered before. And I, I went all over the place in terms of who I was talking to. I just wanted their experience to see if we could uncover some sort of way to find common ground and low and behold.

The very thing that I was doing was the way that I discovered to do it, which was to put our certainty aside, replace it with curiosity and ask people questions, ask people questions to uncover those slivers of common ground that we can come together on and build off of that, argue what we're for rather than what we're against and actually solve some really Gnarly problems out there in the world.

The second TEDx talk then is what mindset do you even have to have to be able to do that? You have to have this mindset of a peacemaker versus a peacekeeper. A lot of, a lot of people these days have the mindset of a peacekeeper where it's couched as. Self care or taking care of yourself to withdraw from things that make you uncomfortable, to withdraw from things that challenge your beliefs and ideas, simply because they might feel a little icky or you've never had to actually articulate what you believe in the past.

And how you came to those beliefs, why you believe the way that you do. Well, a peacemaker says, Hey, there's a, there's a change that I want to see in the world and I can't rely on other people to do it. So I'm going to put on the, I'm going to put on the boots. I'm going to put on the work gloves and go do the work myself.

Even if it's dirty, messy, uncomfortable, morally. feels morally wrong to do it, to engage with people who think and believe and act differently than I do all for the work of creating and making peace that is real, that is sustainable. And that actually solves the problem. I don't know if that's the spark notes version, but that's as short as I think I can make it.

Yeah. Yeah. That's that's a perfect, perfect launching off point. When you talk about it feels so icky, it feels so like I. I'm sure as you do too, and many listening, have such a high fucking sense of justice. When you see people treated in an unjust way, it is so hard to get to that point where you bring curiosity.

I think because you see the cruelty of what's happening to people. How do you bring Curiosity to somebody who maybe you have shared your lived experiences with and they're kind of poo pooing it. How do you continue to bring curiosity to those people and who do you bring curiosity to? Do you, I mean, is it a bring curiosity to anyone who feels this way?

Is it someone who gives a fuck about trying to find common ground as well? I'm, I would love your thoughts on that. That's what I'm really struggling with. Sure. Let's start with the situation itself. What I'm not asking people to do is enter into dangerous conversations or dangerous situations. And that is a very real thing for people, but we have to be honest about what is dangerous and what is uncomfortable, right?

There's, there is the difference between going into a darkly lit alley at night and, and having a conversation where emotions might run a little high. But for too often, I've seen people conflate the two and call something that is merely psychologically uncomfortable, dangerous. Oh, that language is dangerous.

Your, your beliefs, they're dangerous. Let's be honest here and let's, let's think about the words, the rhetoric that we're using to describe a situation that immediately puts us in an at odds position with each other. So that's, that's the first level set that I want us to. The second is, have you built up enough trust with that person to even have that conversation in that space?

If it's a conversation with somebody on Instagram or on LinkedIn or on Twitter or X, is that the space? A very public forum, a very lacking nuance space where no trust has been built between complete strangers who cannot see each other, interact with each other, sense each other's emotions. Is that the space to have that conversation?

Will there be a foundation of trust built that you even can have a very emotional conversation? And that's, that's also key. Emotions are fine. Emotions are a completely human thing when we let them dictate our actions, that's when it can be, that's when it can go off the rails. But emotions in these conversations, you're going to get mad.

You're going to get upset. Your voice might rise. You, you have control over all of that for sure. But. Emotions. We're often told to control your emotions in these situations. And I'm like, yeah, maybe not. Maybe let's not. I think we need to feel and experience and sense each other's emotions, but is the place in space where we're having the conversation, the place to demonstrate those and have we built the trust.

That's another level set for us. Mm-hmm . The third level set that I want there more to talk about. There's more. There's more. Okay. Theres's more. There's a few. There's a few more here. I'm like, fuck. I'm like, I'm already, I'm like, okay. This whole thing is about coming with curiosity. Hold the questions, come with an open mind because this is already cha this is already challenging so much.

Continue. I'm really excited to hear about this last level level. Oh, there's, there's two. There's two more. There's two more. Oh, fuck. Okay, great. Keep going. . The, the third is you have to understand. How Stephen Covey in his seven high, seven habits of highly influential people, how he described it as the circle of control, influence and concern.

You have in the center of this bullseye. You have your area of concern or excuse me control. What do you control? What can you control? What do you have the authority to control for most of us? We have the ability to control our thoughts our actions our reactions The things that we say it all is this internalized I have, I have autonomy over myself and nothing more.

Then you have the next ring out, which is your circle of influence. How much influence do you have going back to the trust thing that I talked about earlier? Have you built trust to be able to even speak into somebody's life where they will even listen to what you have to say or disregard it? You have influence over things like voting.

You can vote to influence an election. Sure. People will argue probably on how much influence that is, but you have influence over your job, your coworkers, your friends, your family. You have influence over your, over you know, whether you get a raise or not at work, right. All areas where you don't have the authority or the autonomy to force someone to make a decision or to force someone to change, but you have.

A level of influence, we should be wanting to increase that level of influence. And we build that level of influence through a lot of the things that I've already been talking about. We lean into curiosity. We lean into building trust and a foundation and protecting the relationship with someone or committing to this conversation is going to last longer than this five minute window where I'm going to convince you to change or not.

So it's a longer term view when we talk about holding influence. The outermost circle of that is the area of concern. The things that we're concerned about, the things that occupy our mind, wars in foreign countries political decisions in Congress or in the, the, And the presidential office climate change, the environment, all things that we are concerned about that can, if we allow it to take deep root in our minds and consume our thoughts so much so that they become the things that we argue for and argue about over and over and over again.

And yet we have no ability to control or influence them. When that circle gets inverted and we care and communicate more through what we're concerned about rather than what we control, that's where a lot of decisions and conversations go off the rails. The fourth point, the fourth frame here is You mentioned something early in, in introducing this conversation, Jamie, that was really interesting.

You said, right after the election, you're fighting these feelings of fear and feeling scared. Mm hmm. Far too often, we understand what's going on in our minds and we understand the fullness and the range of our emotions and our thoughts and our actions and our, our intentions. Only we have the fullness of that picture in our minds.

It's called the problem of other minds is that we don't know that in others. Yet we often, often assume that others who believe, think and act differently than us are doing it for malicious reasons. But what if they were scared to, how would the conversation change? If you saw someone who is disagreeing with you as not malicious.

But scared now scared for reasons you might not even understand or agree with, totally understand and get that. But if you don't know that, how could you possibly start to have influence into that person's life if you don't understand where those feelings are coming from? So those are, those would be the four frames that I would kind of tee us up with that.

I know I've been talking a long time, Jamie, but I really get into this stuff. I really love this stuff because it is. It goes against what we've been taught. It goes against what has been incentivized in terms of be right, be right. Have your answer stick to your guns. Don't change, feel morally justified in, in sticking to your guns and never changing when in actuality.

Holding loosely to a lot of those things and being willing to change and understanding that change and curiosity don't mean that you are advocating for anything less than you already have from a justice perspective or from a moral obligation perspective. It's just that every one person on my podcast told me every perspective is biased.

Limited biased, incomplete, and therefore limited, including your own. And the second the day you realize that becomes the day that you have to then lean into curiosity, over certainty about what you think, you know, just gonna sit with these really uncomfortable feelings for a moment. . So you mentioned something that I want to touch on, which is that words are not inherently dangerous. I think where I struggle is that when you look at history and say something as tragic as like the Holocaust, it started with an idea. And the idea is that there are others and there are us and we have to protect us and maybe didn't even, at least in the beginning, say, but by that, we have to push out the others.

So when you see such horrible things happening to people, starting with an idea, it's really hard not to hear some of the things that are coming out of people's mouths and think, holy fuck, this is dangerous. If we continue down this thought if people in power continue with this thought There's a lot of people who are going to be Really hurt.

That's where I have a really hard time with like, but fuck, how was, how is it not dangerous. And I also think about, I have seen, you know, first and second hand, like how abusive relationships start and they don't start with a big bang. They start with just little ideas that they plant into your head.

And so I'm just curious of your thoughts on that, whereas I think that's where I'm struggling with the idea that words aren't dangerous. Sure. Totally fair. And that's where the nuance of this gets in, comes into play. My, my wife is before, before we had our second child, she worked as a, as an advocate at a domestic violence shelter as an advocate for survivors and victims of sexual assault and domestic violence.

And. Absolutely. You're absolutely right. Words get to a point over time, a buildup where they do have a damaging effect. They do have a, a breaking down component that often then leads to an even more dangerous action. I would be I would be foolish to say that that is not dangerous. And so it's not that words cannot be dangerous.

And if I, if I intimated that that was not the case, I misspoke and I apologize for that. But we have to be honest about is my friends saying those things that make me uncomfortable, truly dangerous. And so I can't. Or, or a family member. And so I can't engage with them anymore to try and understand them, to try and potentially have the influence to change that dangerous mind.

Like where's my, that dangerous mindset, where's, where's the accountability for me perhaps to be the one to, to change the, that potentially down the road, dangerous mindset there's, there is nuance of this. There's the buildup of it. Yes. Absolutely. The language and rhetoric that led to the Holocaust was dangerous.

And I, I'm not discounting that at all, but I think in labeling things in being quick to label things as dangerous. It becomes very easy to remove ourselves out of the things that are. Merely uncomfortable and say, you know what, that's dangerous. I'm not going to interact with you anymore because you're dangerous.

You're a danger. And we're assigning that to somebody who, if we were honest with ourselves, we might have some ability to influence a change in that space. I don't know if this is answering your question, but they're the, the beauty of. Curiosity the beauty of communicating in ways that we were never taught with school never taught in school is that nuance and complexity and the messy makeup of relationships and how we interact with each other.

That's okay, that's okay in this space, but we also have to be very honest with ourselves about what that's what is the makeup of that space. That makes sense. And I would I asked that clarifying question because I know, like, I know your heart. I know you well enough to know that you would never intend, like, right.

Yeah. And then that's why I asked that question. I'm just like, But I don't think Michael would think that it's not dangerous to like other people and then you know have these mass murders of Certain races or ethnicities. So that's why I wanted to ask that question now now Jamie Take me out of this seat and replace me with somebody who this is our first conversation I won't lie, Michael.

That's why I'm just like, fuck, I'm, I'm, I'm ashamed to say that I would not be giving that person the grace I'm giving you. Like, I knew to ask that question because I know who you are. But if it was someone else for the first time. And to be quite honest, if it was someone else for the first time, that looks like you, because I have said so many times on this podcast, you know, I'm not going to listen to some cisgender heterosexual white man in his forties who wrote a self help book.

And here the fuck I am talking to you, the exact person who I asked to have this conversation with. And now I, I don't know if I can even say that line anymore, but I'm like, but that's Michael and Michael's an amazing person. Oh, Jamie, that's the beauty of it. Like, holding back tears because I'm like, fuck, like, I've said this so many times, but like, Michael is such a beautiful person, like, fuck.

And then when you mentioned that you're a Christian on your second TED Talk, and again, I have bias against people who identify as Christian because I've had it I've had people who have used that against me to pretty much try to control me and can control my mom in a certain way. And it's just like, but people who are truly Christians and walk it and really want to be like Jesus, they don't act like that.

And just because someone identifies as a Christian doesn't mean that they want to control you through, through, through. Of the bible through these teachings like there's a lot of really great people who identify as christian i'm coming across more of them Like i'm one of my best friends identify as christian and we've had nuanced conversations But i'm like I can't even I can't even say like, you know fucking christians are fucking, you know 40 year olds has had white men who wrote a self help book because here I am talking to you So I am ashamed to say that I I know i'm very biased and I feel bad about biases I've had against.

I know a lot of really good people. Don't be ashamed. Don't be ashamed. That is, that is human. You are human in that, but isn't it wonderful when you can lift up that stereotype, set it aside and place Michael in front of you whenever you have those thoughts or your, your other friend, for instance, anytime we can follow that curiosity into someone who we have.

Made assumptions about we have opinions about we have characterized as a certain way or taken it a step further stereotype to them and created a caricature of who they are representing this larger thing that we are fearful of. Isn't it wonderful when we can say, but Michael's not that way, but so and so is not that way.

You know, I shared with you the story of Daryl Davis on one of our calls, Daryl Davis is a black man who he grew up traveling around the world. His, his father worked in the government and, and traveled to all these embassies and countries around the world really got an exposure to. Cultures and personalities and different skin colors and different people around the world and comes home to America as a young boy.

And in the, in the fifties and sixties at a time where this country was going through some stuff, right? Racially. And the day Martin Luther King jr. Died and he sees. His father's reaction to that and what that means. He starts to take a deep dive into Martin Luther King Jr's work. And he has his own experiences as a young boy, first experiencing racism.

And he's like, he asked the question, Jamie, how can you hate me? If you don't even know me and that question, that curiosity sparked him saying, well, if I'm going to answer that question, who do I have to go to? I can't go to my pastor. I can't go to somebody who looks like me. I have to go to the person who hates me and doesn't even know me and ask them what's going on here.

So Daryl Davis, a black man starts attending Ku Klux Klan rallies, starts sitting down with conversations with KKK grand wizards and neo Nazis to understand where those feelings of hatred came from that have no basis in reality, because Jamie. If this was our first time sitting down and you, you had a story about me or, or we're repeating all those things that you said about me, where would that have come into play for me, the person that's, that's what Daryl Davis was talking about me, the person you're hating me because of these, these.

Things that I had no control over

and in his case, it's the color of his skin. Right. But Daryl has has through that approach. Daryl has been the impetus. He's been the driver for more than 200. I believe it's over. It's close to 300 now people to leave the KKK, to leave white supremacist groups, to lead, leave neo Nazi organizations like the national socialist movement.

The grand wizards have given Daryl their their robes. Their hoods and said, look, this is a, this is a symbol that this is not me anymore. I can't, I can't match. I can't justify the feelings of hatred that I had about people of a certain race, color, gender, creed, religion. I can't justify this and match it with who I know you to be the person, Daryl.

And in that world, those things just shatter. Those assumptions, those, those dehumanizing, those dehumanizing beliefs about other people, they have no leg to stand on. But it starts with curiosity and it, it sucks because it is often the, the victim, the person who is, is at, at ill or at odds. They're often the one that have to take the first step.

And that sucks. And I hate that.

So I have a follow up question. Is like to start these conversations, is it. Literally to, to ask someone like, how could you hate me if you don't know, if you don't know me? A lot of, a lot of people that, you know, and my, my husband and I both come from very conservative Catholic families. If we were, we, neither of us could come out until actually quite recently where we Felt safe to and it's hard Having family members who feel so strongly against queer people For one i've had to do a lot of work on internalized homophobia And there were times where both he and I didn't want to didn't want to live anymore simply because we were so we were so out against our family and we just because of who we are and who we were born to be And it's really hard having conversations When it's like, you have been talking shit about my, about me this entire time, and you didn't even know it.

It's hard to even know how to start those conversations of like, you say that you hate, that you can't stand queer people, that it's a choice, it's all these things, but like, here I am in front of you, and I'm telling you that that's not true. What's challenging is that when you do bare your heart like that, there's not an immediate shift.

And it's hard, it's, that's what's really, really hard is to bury your, bury your soul and be like, this is pain I have dealt with for three fucking decades. And I, I'm showing you evidence that contradicts everything you're thinking, please see me as a person. And even that takes time that I do struggle with.

And that is what I referred to earlier is. There has to be a commitment internally to protect the relationship first. the long term relationship first, that the problem is not going to get solved in one conversation most of the time. That the, the mindset shift is not going to, it's going to be a slow burn.

In these situations where, because people don't like to be forced to change and if they feel like you're forcing them to change or, or that, that the finger pointing is, well, you're bad, so you have to change or, or you're a bad person, we get into this zero sum mindset or this total victory fallacy where it's either gotta be, I, I bare my soul to you and you completely come over to my side or it's all is lost.

And again, it's, there's a messy middle to relationships. There's a messy messy world in, in leading with curiosity and letting the, the offense, the. In some instances, the feelings of dehumanization, or sometimes the very real instances of dehumanization setting that aside and saying, I've got a deeper purpose here.

I've got a deeper goal here. When you can continually ask yourself, what's my goal? What's my goal? What's my goal? And remind yourself that people don't like to be forced to change. They have to come to those beliefs on their own. Look, none of those. None of those grand wizards that Darryl Davis got to leave the Ku Klux Klan did so because Darryl said, you should leave.

He didn't ask a single one of them. If they would leave, they made the decision on their own when again, the incongruencies, the, the, they could no longer. Yeah, nothing lined up anymore and what they thought they believed and what they're seeing right in front of them They couldn't make peace with it anymore And and that's the point that someone to change has to get to know one of my favorite quotes on change Because it doesn't always have to be negative either.

It doesn't always have to feel like I'm a terrible person John, John C. Maxwell. He's an author. He's the leadership coach. He wrote that people change for four reasons or in four seasons when they heard enough that they have to, when they see enough that they're inspired to do, when they learn enough that they want to, and when they receive enough that they're able to.

In the, when we focus on the areas that we're concerned about, Rather than the things that we control, we start to default in our communication style and how we approach relationships and conflict. We start to do everything through the lens of what we're concerned about. We start to communicate through what we're concerned about.

And then we, because we don't have control. We get frustrated and we start to try and force others to change. You're in front of me and you represent this thing that I don't like. I'm going to get you to change so I can feel some level of victory or some level of winning or some level of certainty that my way's right.

When you flip it, when you look at those other reasons why people change, when they learn enough, when they see enough, when they receive enough. That they want to, that they're able to, that they're inspired to. Those are decisions that they're coming to on their own. Right. And so our role, the world that we can control and influence is all about showing, giving, and presenting a, a different picture than the one they have built up in their mind.

And it is to go back to your question or to your thoughts. It is not a short process. You're absolutely right. Yeah. I'm curious if you. believe that humans on like just that all humans once they have either one or all of those things that they will change their perspective or if there are people who will simply refuse to See enough to learn enough to have incongruencies with their with their thoughts I'm, i'm curious of your thoughts on that.

I couldn't say, you know that's an answer where I I don't know I do I do I Think and believe that there are going to be people that no matter what information they're presented with There will be a way to work around it and justify the other probably Yeah. I mean, we're, we're odd, fickle creatures and, and that is to an earlier question you asked something that you also have to consider is there, there is a point and you have to make that decision for yourself where you've, you can only show, teach and give so much.

Before you have to set some boundaries and boundary setting is a healthy thing. No, you don't get that level of access to my life because I don't trust you. Those types of things, right? Boundary setting is completely fine and reasonable. Even from the get go, even from the very start, we're going to set some boundaries here so that this does not go off the rails.

And sure, I do think there are going to be a certain segment of people that say, I don't care what you show me. I don't care what I've seen. I believe what I believe and that's that. And that's not your responsibility or your control. I really appreciate you saying that. Because when you're talking about peacekeeping and I'm just like, well, fuck, am I, am I setting boundaries or am I peacekeeping?

I also just have to be very conscious of having, being autistic. I have a nervous system that kind of always feels like I'm being chased by a bear. Yeah. So try taking that into, into consideration as well, but what are, what are signs that like, hey, maybe this person is, is worth continuing to have conversations with versus, I have given out everything that I fucking can at this point.

I have to set boundaries is literally the answer to that question. Just. Internally, the energy that you have it. Are there things that you can look out for in a person to, to notice if there is the slightest bit of curiosity versus just a brunt? Everything you say is wrong. What are your thoughts there?

You know yeah, it's, it's going to be a nuanced. Answer to that question too. Yes, it absolutely will have to do with your energy. And there are days and moments and even periods of your life where you won't have that energy. Something I said in my second TEDx talk is that doesn't make the initial attempt wrong or not worth it.

And it could also mean that. You're not the one to continue the conversation with this person. And that's okay. At least the attempt was there and the attempt was good and the attempt was worth it. It might not, it might be on somebody else to continue on from there. Science. Yeah. When they ask you questions do you feel the, or when you ask them questions, excuse me, can you begin to get a sense that the defensiveness is going down now to be able to do that?

You have to not be able, you have to be able to not weaponize your questions. We have a nasty little tendency to take what somebody says, create a straw man argument out of it, or a stereotype related to a stereotype and say back to the person, well, you, you just said this, so you believe this, don't you?

Well, that's, that is a question, Jamie, but it is not a fair question and it is not a weaponized. It is a weaponized question. So are you beginning to get, are you beginning to see the, the defenses lower a little bit that when you ask a question, it is not met with immediate defensiveness. Maybe it's even met with perhaps a little uncertainty.

Maybe it's met with. Well, this is how I believe. Why do you believe this way? So the question starts to come back to you because there's now a, a decision being made that Oh what this conversation we're having, I've never had to articulate these thoughts before. And I'm not actually sure what I believe.

Or why I've been saying these things all my life. Like, look, Jamie, most of us have never questioned why we believe what we believe. I always go back to the first time I ever stated my political affiliation as a young teenager. Do you think that that was the result of me doing my research and looking into all the candidates?

No, it was, I grew up in red state, Kansas with a very conservative family. My beliefs were my family's beliefs. Yeah. They were my grandparents. They were my mom, my dad, like my, my pastor, all of that had formulated into this. There's this moment where we speak those things out loud as if they are ours, but they're not actually ours.

Am I making sense here? Yeah, absolutely. So in that world, it's really difficult 20 years later to go back in your mind, to go back in time and say, why did I believe that? Why, why was that important to me? Do I still believe that? And if the answer to that is no, well, then who am I saying no to? Am I saying no to my family?

Am I, am I turning my back on my tribe? My people, these are the very real emotions, anthropological and psychological emotions, and things that we deal with that are deeply ingrained with us look to go against the will of the tribe. Means ostrich, ostriches means you might get kicked out. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Means you might get shunned means you might no longer be invited to the family event means you might not you know, if you leave the room, you're pretty sure other people are talking about you, like the stories that you start to create in your mind about what's going on behind the scenes.

All of those things are really scary and dangerous to our minds. And if we never. Like getting over that hump of first questioning them, but then actually going and asking questions about others, of others, confirm or deny what we feel and think and believe. We just kind of go about on, on our preset mode and it, it can get us into some, some really uncomfortable positions later in life.

This has given me a lot to think about. I bet this has given everyone who's listening a lot to think about. It comes back to, this is going to be so fucking, this work is going to be so fucking uncomfortable. It has to be done. Damn it. I want to have someone hand me over, but a like, but Jamie, you're a good person.

You're exempt from doing this work hard, but I don't even want to do that because I like, I feel like at the base, I just want the world to be a better fucking place. I don't want people to be scared to live. I don't want them to be in fear for their life because of the color of their skin or their fucking citizen status or the fact that they're queer.

Like it's. It's just like, what the fuck can I do to make this world a better place? And. I'm dealing with the looping thought of like, okay, well, then you have to, it goes back to the others, othering them. I have to try to change their views because if I don't change their views, then all these people could be fucking hurt, like they have been so many times in history.

And then it goes back, then coming back to, but they're not going to change if you don't get curious and you don't ask questions and you try to dismantle it. But you also talk about, like, your goal shouldn't be to change someone's perspective. And I'm curious of your thoughts on this, when it's something as high stakes as people are being othered in a way that you're really fearful that they're going to, you know, off them. Well, can I, can I, while you think of that, can I clarify something here? You said you said it shouldn't be our goal to change someone's perspective. Yes, okay. Well, that's not the right language. For me, that's not the right, that's not the language I would use. Because absolutely I want to change someone's perspective.

Okay. The goal that a lot of people have going into these conversations is I want to change what you believe and how you act right now. Now, perspective change just simply means maybe you've widened their field of vision a little bit. You've taken, you've moved the blinders. Out just a little bit. And now instead of seeing only 10 percent of what's in front of them, they can maybe see 15 percent and then the next conversation, maybe it's 17 percent and then 30 percent there's a big jump there, right?

Right. Perspective change. Your goal absolutely should be to go in and say, this is my lived experience and here's how it can inform a perspective of the world, going in with the goal of changing perspective. Absolutely. Going in with the goal of changing. Changing mind, changing belief, changing action in that moment.

You don't have the control to do that, but you do have the control to change someone's perspective. Okay. But if we're honest with ourselves as our goal, not on some level to cheat, to open their perspective enough that their actions and. Words align with kindness to all people. If I'm going to be really honest with myself, that's my long term goal.

And I, it just is because I feel like if we don't get to that point, a lot of people are going to be hurt. Yeah. Okay. Love it. Great. And that's a totally human thing for you to feel. Jamie. Again, I go back to, do you have that control and you've got to be honest. If you don't have that control, you don't get to make that decision.

Don't put that pressure on yourself. Show up. In the places and spaces, try to increase your level of influence, try to offer that perspective that you can control. If you want the control, then go run for office. Like, literally go run for office and gain the authority to make that change. That's, that's the only way to do it.

In all other areas of life. And this, we could be talking about it at work. Look, you don't like what your boss, how your boss believes, how your boss is running the company, how your boss is managing you or your coworkers. All you have is you can control your, your, how you show up and do your job every single day.

And you have perhaps some influence over your boss. And if they still won't change, then you either got to figure out a way to have, get their job or leave that is in your control. Yeah. Again, I say that as. I don't like to use the word privileged. I think that has been hijacked, but I'll say it here in this space.

As a privileged white man, I know that I can, who, who doesn't have, you know, who doesn't have to, to work two jobs just to make ends meet, right? Like I can say that and not have it mean something different than it would for a disadvantaged or minority community. And I understand that and I get that. But there are other ways that we can work towards that.

And it has to start with our self accountability of what do I even have the ability to control. Now, a lot of people in a big group with a lot of influence can gain control. Right. So, but are we creating more of those places and spaces to have those conversations where we're inviting others in? Or are we saying, this is what we believe you're not welcome here.

Go away. And we're going to always constantly just be button heads and fighting rather than perhaps inviting someone into a conversation where a, a mindset shift could take place. That makes, that does make sense. That does deeply uncomfortable. I know it. It is. It is. Let me be clear to Jamie. I struggle with this just as much as anybody else does.

I fall into these certainty traps. I lash out at things that I don't like. I've lost jobs because of this. Like, you know, yeah, of course, I'm human. I'm a human being. Like, I've had arguments with family members about this stuff. I like

it. But if I consistently point myself back to leading with my curiosity, There is no bridge that I think I can't cross. Maybe that's. Stupid, dumb confidence or, or arrogance, but I, I believe it right, wrong or the other. Well, I'm going to take that and I'm going to run with it because it feels really good to believe that too.

As a, I want to finish up with, as a journalist, you have a much better understanding of. How the media polarizes people versus someone who hasn't been, who hasn't done that work before. I feel like I may have read a post that you maybe had on LinkedIn about how, just how the media works to polarize people, how it's not always, often isn't very accurate, that their goal is to get a reaction from you to polarize you more.

I am just curious. With your experience as a journalist, how the media is perpetuating these thoughts and these narratives without us maybe even realizing it. Yeah, I've, I've worked in newsrooms. I I've been alongside the headline writers when they're thinking. Well, what's going to, what's going to make people stop and read this story, right?

I've seen the statistics presented where this, this type of headline, this negative headline gets more clicks than this more positive one, or this more, more neutral one, right? Studies are there. They're, they're all there. Negativity is what sells we, because we are by nature, very fearful people, creatures, however you want to label us.

I've been in those spaces and places. And that's the first thing that I would say is understand that behind the umbrella term of the media are people and people are incentivized in different ways. They have their own biases and beliefs and, and incomplete perspectives. And. There is a bent depending on the outlet that you want of a story that they want to tell even, even, you know, I, I prop up local journalism, local community community journalists as, as more of the standard of the model that we want to be acting towards.

But even then, you know, if I, if I'm a local journalist, I want my community to do better and cause it's more fun to report on things. It's like the growth of a town and the good things going on in a town than the one down the street or the one down the highway, right? Like there's, there's even a bias towards community, right?

So it's, it's not even perfect there and it never will be, but yes, absolutely. The, the mainstream media, the media, however you want to label it. And no matter what outlet you're looking at, cause I certainly haven't found one. There isn't an, there is a bias working behind the scenes, whether it is conscious or not, we know that negative hit, we are incentivized journalism news is incentivized.

We, we can go into the history of journalism because we got into a place where we gave our news away for free online, we had to generate. New We had to generate revenue through ads, impressions, things like that. All things that incentivize bad behavior, all things that incentivized because news sites, like I can go to CNN right now and read every single article.

I can go to Fox news right now and read every single article. I can go to most or many newspapers right now and still read. You know, two or three free articles a month when that, when I first got into journalism and newspapers were making the digital shift, everything was given away for free. And we had to figure out a way to make money while making money meant being as polarizing and entertaining as possible.

And so what news has become is, entertainment with a bent, depending on the outlet that you're watching and listen. No one is unaffected by this just because you're a conservative doesn't mean that Fox News is unaffected just because you are a Progressive or liberal doesn't mean that MSNBC or CNN are unaffected They are all they just have their perspective that they're trying to prop up through entertainment through entertaining their audience

I've been asked how to okay. So what do we do about it? If you get into a situation where you want to be educated and informed about what's going on, I highly encourage you read as many sources as you can, as, as angry as it might get you. If you're a liberal or left leaning go to Fox news and see how they're reporting on the same thing.

Go to the BBC and see how they're reporting on the same thing. Sure. Check out MSNBC or CNN, see how they're reporting on the same thing. Go to Axios, go to all these other newsletters. I can't even think of any off the top of my head, but like get a, get a sense for how all of these outlets are reporting on the exact same thing.

Because then you can start making some decisions for yourself rather than being driven by what the headline tells you, you should think. But then are you not going to just lean with whatever one is aligned with your Internal bias or is that probably, probably, but at least, you know, what the other side saying, at least you, you know, start to look at it the way that something funny that I've noticed recently, the way that for instance, foxnews.

com will report on a celebrity breakup versus the way Axios or BBC might report on the same thing. It's it's quite hilarious. That even in those seemingly innocuous, non political, um, headlines or, or stories that, that, that bias makes its way in. I would just say, be aware of it, be aware of it, be, be noticing how things are making you feel and understand that if you're feeling a certain way, it was probably designed to make you feel that way.

Oh, fuck. I feel like a little puppet over here. Like they have the, like they're, they're holding on to the thing with the strings and they're just like, you know, can you do what they, or you could do what I did and delete social media off your phone and only check the news once a week for the headlines.

Oh my gosh. I I've been telling Joe, I'm just like, you know, I don't know, maybe I should just lean in even more to my speaking business because then I don't have to use social media. It's all direct outreach. I'm so fucking over social media. I'll, I'll make that decision another time, but Michael, thank you so much.

I really appreciate you and bringing all of your experiences and sharing so freely. And this is. This is going to be really insightful for a lot of people, including myself. I'm going to chew on all these thoughts for the next, I don't even know how long, because there's a lot to think about. But I really appreciate you being here.

Thank you, Jamie. Thank you for inviting me and having the conversation. And I'll, I'll say this as my parting words, this is going to bring up my, no, my, what I've said here is going to bring up more questions. There's going to be the, but what abouts, right? There's going to be the what ifs. I welcome that like that's curiosity, right?

Bring that. So please reach out to me, Michael at rethinking communication. com. If you want to have a conversation, actual real conversation I can handle your questions. And I love your curiosity. Awesome. And also you should hire him. If you have any interest in public speaking, you should reach out to him.

If you have any interest in trying to prep for, how do I apply for a TEDx talk? And also on how do I deal with all of my internal bias? All those things you should reach out to Michael and you should buy his book. Can I ask a question? And you should listen to his podcast, Rethinking Communication.

And I will link all of that in the show notes as well. And the, and your website is michaelashford. com, correct? That's right. That's it. Yep. A S H F O R D. Am I remembering that? That's the one. Yeah. Okay. All right. And I'll put, and I'll put all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much, Michael. Thanks, Jamie.

 Are you a high achieving woman with ADHD looking for a coach or maybe an event coordinator looking for a wildly captivating speaker? Perfect. Go to OutsmartADHD. co. That's OutsmartADHD. co to get in touch. And before I forget, would you mind taking a minute to share this podcast with someone you love? It would mean the world to me.

Thanks my friend. Until next time.