Emotional Immaturity, ADHD & Healing Through Reparenting Yourself with Sarah Russell (Part 1)

 Hi friends. Welcome back. I am, I'm super excited to be talking to our guest today. You know, when you meet someone and you just know, like, I really vibe with this person and you're not quite sure why, but then you talk to them and you're like, that's why I fucking vibe with you from the very beginning. So today we've got Sarah Russell.

She is an. ADHD coach, your chronically ill bestie, mom of two, is reparenting herself and others through conscious discipline. She's a DV, an SA survivor, an ally, a friend, a listener. She's also a podcast or an experienced podcast producer, an ADHD coach who is super passionate about helping neurodivergent individuals thrive.

She's dedicated to making peer reviewed research accessible to the masses and is super steadfast in her values. Which is something that I caught on to like really, really quickly. Has a bachelor's degree in sociology with direct care experience, diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, and And her personal journey has fueled her mission to empower others with evidence based tools and insightful analysis.

Sarah, I am super duper fucking excited to be talking to you. I've been looking forward to this conversation since you commented on one of my posts of like, Hey, that episode of emotional immature parents, I have gone down a deep dive. Let's talk. Maybe you want to talk. And I'm like, yeah, let's talk. And then I did that really cute thing that some ADHDers do often where I like really suck at replying to messages.

But I'm like, I hope she knows I genuinely super want to talk to her. Sarah, thank you for being here today. I am so excited. So yes, I definitely am guilty of shooting the shot. In the public comments on Facebook. Yeah, I just got so excited to read about what you were getting excited about these days.

Cause It's really, I feel like it's so sneaky how it manifests literally everywhere but yeah. Anyway, I feel like this conversation, not even the topic, but just the fact that we are here together has been a long time coming. Yeah. I've wanted to talk to you again in a recorded Ever since I met you last year.

Really? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. If you Well, I'm so happy it's happening now. Yeah, for sure. Gotta shoot the shot. You've gotta shoot the shot. Otherwise, you never know. No. And also You don't know who loves you unless you It's so true. It's so true. I was just telling my husband before pressing record that it meant the world to me a few months back.

I mean, time is hard when you have ADHD, right? But I don't even know when it was when you reached out and said, like, Hey, it was, it was when I was posting about how people on my Facebook group had been shitty to me. And you went out of your way to message me and be like, Hey, like, what your content is resonating with me.

And it's the people who haven't healed yet that are the loudest and like, just know that you're making a difference. I hope that you know that. That has stuck with me and what, like, I remember that message in moments that it's hard to post because I'm worried about RSD. I'm like, yeah, but like, Sarah reached out to me and there's gotta be more Sarahs out there.

And there's gotta be people who actually give a fuck about what I have to say and are receiving it. And I'm not gonna let the shitty people that are shitty to me get in the way of that. Get em! So, I just want you to know, like, how much that meant to me and how impactful it was to me personally and how much I just really appreciate it.

As a human who feels RSD because of fucking ADHD. I never would have known that. Thank you so much for telling me. You're so welcome. So emotional immaturity, understanding emotional immaturity and maturity. Can I ask what got you started down that? Rabbit hole.

My parents. I was sort of one of those teens that were really emotional and I was told that like, that was a problem, and I was like, well, what are you talking about? I'm exactly like my parents. Oh. Yeah. Mm hmm. And like, society never held them accountable, but whatever, we'll talk about the holding each other to higher standards.

Yeah, and then I did like a bunch of, I mean, I, gosh, I did my undergrad, like I was trying to collect all the pokeballs. Like I, I did psychology, I did sociology, I did philosophy. I just tried to take all of the like foundational courses to understand social sciences. And, you know, you know.

This was almost 20 years ago and back then it was all a buzz on like personality disorders and right now narcissism is really big, but back then like borderline personality disorder was really big. You know, we throw the words like psychopath and sociopath around, but like those are also sort of encompassing in here.

And now we're sort of trending towards talking about it as like neurodivergence. And we're starting to understand that, like, personality disorders are really maladaptive. Behaviors as a result of poorly treated or untreated or abused neurodivergence in childhood. I think I'm going to have to say that again, I know.

My brain is computing. Is it a thesis? Yeah, my brain is computing. Okay, so you're saying that, actually, no, I'm not, I, can you say that again? Okay, so it's almost like a it's so I feel like I tried to give almost a flowchart of emotional immaturity and how it's been perceived and talked about in the mental health pop science community, right?

So first, we're talking about personality disorders and now, sort of, we're talking about neurodiversity. And we're seeing that, like, Personality disorders being part of the cluster B, part of the like, it's almost like your major is like your neurodivergence and your minor is like your personality disorder.

Mm. Mm hmm. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so not everybody with neurodivergence is going to develop a personality disorder. No. But somebody who might have had lots of adverse childhood experiences, someone who might have been actually abused chronically or just once gosh, like those people are primed for a personality disorder, especially if they lack the physical resources or the social resources to battle that cognition.

Also like teenagers are not smart. Sorry, I wait, I'm thrown off. How did that fit in here? Because I know this fit in here, but I'm under, I'm not helping to understand why teenagers being not smart is fitting into this. Cause like, I'm really, it is one of those things where like, I'm going to, I'm going to need you to explain that to me, Sarah, because I'm so confused right now.

Like I agree, but also. I think it's, I think it's the whole thing of like your brain isn't critically thinking developed. Like your rational brain isn't maturely developed until you're well into your 20s and for some neurodivergence it's even later. So I, I think what I meant what was you know, teenagers are not.

Cognitively developed enough to protect themselves against the harm of emotional immature parents. Okay. Okay. I keep wanting to say unintelligent, but that's wrong. Emotionally unintelligent? Is that? I would say emotionally unintelligent because it's like what we can't we can have a whole philosophical.

What is intelligence anyway? Well, you have to be aware to be intelligent like you can know facts and True that's so true. It doesn't matter. What fucking letters are after your name if you don't have self awareness and the ability to like Really critically appraise your thoughts and feelings and emotions and actions.

And can you really say you're intelligent? I'm going to argue no. I'm going to argue no. Like, I don't really give a fuck what facts you know about a subject. Including people who, there's also probably a lot of people who could spot a lot of facts about emotionally immature people and then be an emotionally immature person.

I know I ran into that myself with a. With the therapist who that could be a conversation for a whole nother day, but I'm there with you Okay, so when you were down this this journey of like understanding emotionally like emotional immature parents What was your step one?

Like, do you remember the moment? I'm so sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you. No, no, say what you were going to say, because I have no idea. Do you remember the moment where you're like, Whoa, the way that you're treating me is fucked up, and this isn't okay, and, like, kind of the moment that you either maybe discovered emotional immaturity, or the moment as, like, that you experienced as, a child and their care that made you question things.

For sure. There have been so many stages of unveiling this and like unraveling this story, but I feel like the most powerful moment that I come back to is around my 10th birthday. My dad was promising that he was going to be there. And I knew in my heart, he wasn't gonna be there and he didn't come.

And so I learned as a 10 year old girl that my dad was unreliable and also a liar. Holy fuck. That's a big thing to have to realize at 10 years old. But you're still expected to show respect and like, you know, be submissive and like follow the rules that this person arbitrarily sets when they want to be a parent.

Hmm. What I found to be fascinating Oh, sorry. Was there? No, no. I do a lot of filler words. Same. And I know that when I edit the podcast, because the podcast editing software is like, there's this many hundred filler words. You want to take them out? And I'm like, yes, please. Get rid of all my butts, please.

Yeah. It's like is a big one for me. But okay. So. You realize that at such a, at such a young age. Oh, the logic thing. What I thought was really interesting as I am reading the, the parent, or like the partner book to the adult children of emotionally immature parents, the self care for, you know, adult children of emotionally immature parents and it talking about how emotionally immature parents prime you to go based off of logic.

I'm using air quotes for those who aren't watching the video logic, which is just whatever rules they infer onto you and train you to not listen. Listen to intuition and your feelings, because if you did that, it would pretty much show how fucked it is that they're treating you this way. But if they tell you They condition you for that cognitive dissonance.

Yes! Oh, okay. Can I highlight that 17 fucking times? Highlight or they prime you how did you say that again? They prime you or groom you for cognitive dissonance. And that's why I think the family court system doesn't regulate this away as abusive, but that's like another story. Do you want to get into that?

We'd be taking away a lot of kids. I mean, I, so I want to be really clear, like, I don't advocate for separating families but I do want to also be clear that the family court system does a terrible job at protecting children from psychological abuse, from maliciously Mm hmm Emotional impairments. It's interesting that the courts will look at physical safety and our basic needs being met, but not the psychological impacts that will fuck you up.

For the rest of your life, or require you to have 20 years of therapy and still be working on it. It's really interesting. Do you have first hand experience that you want, that you feel comfortable sharing about that, about your thoughts of what, of what made you think about it in this way? Sure, yeah. I mean, my parents were divorced when I was five.

So I definitely had that experience of like, being forced Back with him because it was what the state considered was in the best interest of the child that was huge air quotes for all of you listeners because Yeah, I mean psychological research from the last 70 years shows that psychological abuse has physical like detrimental effects over the lifespan so Wild that we don't have like a physical marker or something because there's a lot of like oh fuck like chronic illnesses that arise from this and i'm sure you've you must have I didn't I can already Tell you some of my way deeper than I have so to like info dump everything, please So that was actually some of my earlier research before I even found out I had ADHD I was doing research into PTSD and I saw, because I definitely have PTSD as well I haven't talked a lot about that in public, but it's, yeah, for sure my oldest diagnosis and yeah, I mean, for probably over a decade now, they've, they've been doing studies showing a link between PTSD and later diagnosis with autoimmune conditions of any kind.

Wow. And when you think about what an autoimmune condition is, it's the body doing a trigger to harm the body. Like, it's like, oh no, a foreign invader, but it's actually just your body attacking itself because the signals got crossed.

When we think about nervous system dysregulation and signals getting crossed, I mean that becomes like really easy to see. Fuck. Yeah, that does make perfect sense why that would, why that would happen. And then we think about our immune conditions. What are they? Like, we have celiac disease. That's like the gluten free gut thing.

We've got like Crohn's disease. I'm not super. Into that, like, I don't know a lot about that one, but I do know that those people have triggers around the gut, gut symptoms as well I don't know, I, I don't know that whole research very much, but I do know that they keep finding more research into the gut brain axis, the connections a lot of our Neurotransmitters are produced in the gut and then like I think I mean my understanding is that they would somehow find their way to the brain You know, how does that happen?

I don't know, but maybe maybe somebody will tell us in the comments Yeah, someone tell us Someone tell us I'm like, I am never on Instagram. I have one, but I'm like never on it. No, no, it's, this is, it's just so funny. Cause like, I always use that as an example of like how technologically illiterate I was, especially in the beginning of my business.

I'm just like, I cannot learn a new social media right now. It just feels too big. And honestly, sometimes it still feels too big, but yeah, it's, it's. Interesting that that is where so many neurotransmitters are created and I'm probably not helping that out right now as my diet has consisted of chicken nuggets and hop or pizza rolls for a while, but that's where I'm at in my healing journey with my own like food stuff.

And I don't want to take away from the topic of this episode, but. I love having conversations with people because you just never know what train we're going to go down and for how long. I'm going to bring the train back to you though, Sarah, because that's where I want the train to be. So how old were you when you started to really like dive into the research and stuff?

Because you, you started understanding this at like 10 years old. When did you start going down this rabbit hole?

Definitely not until I was a grown up again. I think I sort of got my teenage hormones and I no longer cared about my brain or why it worked the way that it did. So I sort of took a break from my research pursuits. To be ratchet? Is that a term you're familiar with? I am familiar with it. I haven't heard it in a hot minute, but yes, very familiar with it.

Anyway, hot girl summer for all you young folks out there. I love it. Anyway, so yeah, definitely like a grown up, probably when I got back to college again. But that's for a reason that we haven't discussed yet. Hmm. Ooh. Is it something you want to discuss or not? Because it's totally okay one way or another. Actually it is. Okay, let's talk. Actually it is. Let's talk. But I'm going to totally blindside you with this because I forgot to tell you I'm a convicted felon.

Oh, okay. Are, do you plan on running for president anytime soon? Because honestly, it turns out that might be a qualifier. Am I eligible? I think I still have to wait a couple years. You might need to hit your late, mid to late 70s before, but I will vote for you at that time if I'm still alive. This is really interesting.

I have really nice legs, so I think I'll just wait until the minimum age and then try again. No yeah. Okay, I love this. So, okay, so actually this is really meaningful because yesterday was the 16 year anniversary of my arrest. Oh, no way. Yeah. Are you, are you open to telling us what happened? Sure. So, I was the getaway driver for an attempted armed robbery.

Shut the fuck up. It was the only time in my life that I was doing opiates. Huh. Obviously, they were not being prescribed to me legally. Mm hmm. I was in the middle of a very serious severe mental health episode. I was 19 years old, and I had no guardians or sort of authority helping keep me in check.

I should have already learned lessons that were stronger, like, you know, but again, why are we here? Emotionally immature parents. I didn't get the necessary learning before I became. So yeah, I mean, honestly, the plan for that day was that I was going to kill myself, but he said, you know, I can get you some money and then we, we don't have to do that.

And I thought in my 19 year old wisdom, that sounds like a great plan. So we did that.

First of all, I really appreciate your vulnerability and sharing that and there's never any judgment it takes a lot to shock me. Maybe it's because of the life experience that I've had, but it takes a lot to shock me. But when you say felon, like my brain does not go to, this is a bad person. I know amazing people who are felons.

I think there's so many people that. Have a record who just simply did not have the support that they needed. And it sounds like you're one of those people I'm curious if there's really anybody who's who has a record who isn't there at least in part Because they did not have the resources. They did not have the support Yeah, I mean, and then there's a lot of people that have records because of the fucking white supremacy and people being shit and not dismantling their internalized racism, but anyway.

I am so glad that you see how convicted felon is an inherently political label. Mm hmm. Absolutely. Somebody recently, like, was like, Huh? Touched their pearls when they found out and I just looked at them and was like Martin Luther King jr. Was a convicted felon. Shut up. I did not even I didn't know that I a long time ago in high school No way, I didn't know that I did not know that It's convenient what what they teach us in the history books.

It sure as fuck is. It really, really is. I just haven't Cleverly crafted narrative, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I was literally just talking to Joe about this a couple days ago. About how In history class, I always fell the fuck asleep. I was not interested, but I wonder if I would have been if they told a truthful story and not one of, you know, the United States is great and everyone else sucks at the end.

Maybe I would have been more engaged if we talked about things like, you know, The racism that happened and what actually fucking happened. Okay. So, yeah. So, convicted felon happened because it sounds like largely you did not have support. Like at all. And when you don't have support and you don't have money.

Yeah, I definitely grew up working class poor for sure. Yeah, I, my so, I don't know who your listeners are, so I'm just gonna give a huge shout out to my hometown I'm from Bridgeport, Connecticut Park City. Anyway, That's sort of my litmus test these days for bigotry because it's also known as the G troit of Connecticut the armpit of New England Interesting.

I'm from Michigan. So I understand what you mean by about there the the comparison Detroit. Yeah. Yeah so Yeah, so growing up there and then with my white privilege, what happened to me mm-hmm . And then sort of getting into college and wanting to understand more about my brain and how to better myself and how to prevent what happened to me to like from happening to other, you know, young girls especially.

Mm-hmm . It just, I feel like it led me down a path that I am still on. Because I still don't understand my brain. Not like completely. And I never will. That I was going to say, I think it's the, the deeper you think, since I was a kid, I would always say the more, you know, the more, you know, you don't know. And I'm realizing to think like that, even as a kid showed how fucking deep I thought about everything.

Wow. Like this last week, my therapist You probably read it somewhere. I probably did. And I'm just like, Oh yeah. And then internalized it. This last week, my therapist told me, she was like, I'm not saying this as a, in like a mean way, but like you think too much. I'm like, Amanda, I fucking know that I wish other people would think more like life would be a lot easier for me.

Other people would just, I'm just like, normally people go to a therapist and they're like, how about thinking about this? And I'm just like, here are all the different angles. That I'm, that I'm pondering down which one's correct because my black and my brain still wants something that's correct. I, can I interrupt you and ask really quickly?

Yeah. Is that the autism in you or? You know, I am trying to understand that myself. Because I relate with that very deeply. Okay. Yeah. Very good. I love that. TBD. Yeah. We'll figure it out together. Maybe we will. Having a, an ADHD coach who, like, I swear to fuck knows everything about autism. It's been so cool learning from her.

She said that like, understanding the why behind something is a very autistic trait. So. I wonder, like, I'm like, are, do all autistic people think everything to fucking death, or is it just the autistic people I run into? Because, you know, like, you attract people that are like you, just naturally. So that's another, that's another question that, if you ever get the answer to that, Sarah, let me know, and if I ever do, I'll let you know as well.

So I'm definitely more of an ADHD expert, just because I spent way longer doing, like, deep dives into that research. Same. But I actually started as autism professional. Oh, really? I did ABA with kids for a brief time until I learned about the origins of ABA. Oh my gosh. And promptly quit. Yeah.

Yeah. Gotta respect it, but that's my justice sensitivity. Yep. For sure. Yeah, I was a paraprofessional in the schools as well. So I worked with lots of neurodivergent children of all types and abilities. Where was I going with that? Autism, ADHD, research. We were, we went on the, questioning the why.

Yep.

Oh, right. What I was gonna say is that we know for sure pretty much from every study I've read that when they measure how IQ moderates symptoms is that it does. So, like, people with higher intelligence scores tend to show Lower symptoms is that because of masking because they understand socially like how to mask.

I think that's probably true But that also doesn't seem to fit with the overthinking because definitely people who have high IQ will be the high overthinkers But I don't, I don't remember reading very much about overthinking in the research literature. It's still really focused on like, how we are impacting society instead of how to promote wellness within our own autistic selves.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Because the fucking, the diagnostic criteria, it's pretty much like, You're too intelligent for treatment. Goodbye. Right. Right. Fucking hell. Well, that and also being looked at as like, how are you impacting society as if you are the burden? I had a therapist I was working with.

Hold the phone. Huh. Did you see the latest presidential announcement about it? About ADHD? No, I've been. It was just this morning. Fucking hell. I'm gonna send it to you. I, do you follow NeuroDivergent Rebel? Sounds familiar, but I don't Is it on, if it's on Instagram, no, because I don't do shit on Instagram.

But, no, there aren't, I'll send you this Facebook post. Actually, no, I'm gonna, well,

I don't know if you'll be able to see it. I'm gonna send it to you on Facebook. Anyway, yeah, it's basically just neurodivergent, or Hold on let me get to it. Unbelievable. Yeah, it's just the White House releasing a publication about how ADHD is detrimental to society. We're a dire threat to the way of life of American people.

We harm the economy and the security of the nation. Oh. So, they've come for us. Perfect, well In week three, they've come for us. Well, they've already othered immigrants, people of color the queer community, so, I mean, naturally, we're gonna come next, right? What the fuck? And, well, I love that. I love that, though, because we do all need to band together.

I just started, reading the Racial Healing Handbook as well. I checked it out at the same day as I got the White Trash Book the history of class in America. And anyway, this racial healing book talks about sort of examining all the intersectionality of your identities, sort of age, race, obviously, gender, mental Mental health disability slash physical disability seems to be getting lumped together.

Yeah. It's just like, hey, if you have any sort of marginalized identity you're one of us now. Yeah. Welcome to the community. Nice to see you, comrade.

We don't have a club yet because we would all forget to go to it, but welcome to the club. For sure. Yeah. Oh my gosh, this is We'll all try to schedule a coffee date and then just give up because our schedules conflict. Right. But we love each other! Right, but I love you! It's it's funny because My, or my husband Joe, he's like talking about like wanting to go to groups, like different groups and meet people and have friends and I'm just like, I'm afraid to do anything like that because I'm afraid that I'm going to meet someone really like them genuinely as a person and not be able to give them what they need in a friendship because I know that my capacity for friendship is limited after I Put in everything else and, you know, the few clues close friends that I do keep up with and I hate letting people down and I'm sure that that comes back to childhood to have just feeling like, you know, you're always letting people down.

If you can't tend to their every single need I'm. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. I'm definitely thinking about my child right now and how talkative he is and how much I wish that I could give him all the connection that he is looking for. But sometimes I am just so tapped out and I hope that doesn't make me Emotionally immature.

No, I think it makes you incredibly conscious of what you are able to give without expending yourself to a point that would potentially be harmful to him. Like, think about how different our lives would have been if our parents knew when they were tapped out. And we're able to communicate it in an emotionally mature way and disengage.

Yeah. Yeah. And what disengage for a period of time until you know, they have the spoons to reengage in a healthy way that would have been that would have been fantastic. That'd been great. Wow. That would have been great. I wonder So I think you're doing a really great job, Sarah. Thank you. I guess we do all have our limits, you know.

We all have a capacity that is limited. Yes. So can I ask you, when you became Was it triggering for you having, like, giving this child pretty much everything that you wished you had had growing up for yourself? I'm wondering, so as someone who does not have kids, my kids have four paws and they bark and they drive me up a fucking wall, but they're very different, a lot less maintenance than, you know, a child, and completely different dynamic.

Was it, is it triggering for you? Was it triggering for you at times, giving them, you know, what you didn't have? Was it a healing experience? Can you please talk to me about that? Stages and phases, yes. Yes, so much. Actually, I am trying to think of the first time I was triggered by parenting. You know, and I think it was when my son got to be the same age as I was, when my parents were separated.

And I realized that me and his father had also separated under tragic and similar circumstances as my own parents. So was that triggering? Oh yeah. You know, also I think another example would be you know, unfortunately, my first child's father was physically and emotionally abusive, and so, as this child gets older, sometimes they sound like that parent, like you know they learn to say that from them.

Oh, fuck. And that is like a continuation of the abuse. How do you come to terms with that? Because it's your child you love so much. Like, how does one come to fucking terms with that?

Well, I think, obviously, I know that it's not about him. It's not about them. So, any emotion that I feel about that is definitely directed right back towards The actual person who's responsible for that feeling, you know? I don't let myself be angered by my child triggering me. But I do get angry that, like, they were forced to have a relationship with this person.

So, okay, so I guess what I do is I transform that anger, you know, I'm not angry at my child. I'm angry that he's being forced to have a relationship with this person and then is also being forced to learn these things that are harmful to me and him. in the long run. What an incredibly healthy way to parent, Sarah.

Like, I, I hope. I'm so tired. I fucking, I bet you are. I bet you are. It's worth it. It's worth it. I just. It's worth it. I just hope that you know how incredibly brave, incredibly just, yeah, brave. Because to be able to get to that point to say, you know what, I am feeling this way, but my child. Is not the source of it.

This other situation is, this is reminding me of it, and it's my responsibility to deal with those emotions in a way that makes sure that my child stays safe and knows that they are loved. Sarah, that is the, like, one of the most incredible things I've ever heard. I am lucky to have access to that rational thinking.

Mm hmm. Now as an adult, like, I have the capacity for that. Our children don't. Yeah. So, you know, if he yells back at me and he says something mean just to hurt my feelings, like, you know what? I get it. Yeah. Yeah. I, when, if I was using just my emotional brain at its full strength, I might do the same thing, and I definitely have.

Been there, done that. I'm gonna remember, I'm gonna remember this conversation when I am getting triggered by kids. I'm gonna remember this conversation because this is incredibly helpful. What an incredibly helpful reframe that is really tangible for black and white thinkers like myself. Mm. And, and I also totally just steamrolled past the enormous compliment that you gave me.

But my vending machine will now accept that crinkly dollar bill. Yay! Thank you so much. You're welcome. Yeah, I, I feel like I don't give myself enough credit, like I definitely don't sit around the house going like, oh man, I'm such a, I'm such a conscious person, like I'm such a great mom. Yeah, yeah.

You know, I'm like, oh my gosh, I just broke my toe on his birthday, can I still take him to the trampoline park? You know, does it make me a bad mom if I say no? You know? So, yeah, I think that's also probably still some, some of that trauma response, you know? Yeah. Of wanting to be everything. Everything.

That I didn't get. Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine that's a really hard balance when you want to give them everything, but also being an emotionally mature person and a self aware person, you are incredibly aware of your capacity and also knowing, like, if you expend more than you can, it will put you in a place where you don't have the spoons to respond in an emotionally mature way.

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. We've really had to learn a lot of co regulation strategies in this household because are you familiar with that term? Yes. Yes. Okay, good. Yeah silly me. No, not silly. It's not like, it's not something that I had thought about for a long time. It's something that's honestly a newer thought because I had been hyper independent or been raised to be hyper independent, which I'm sure you very much relate to so no, it's my nickname is Hustle Russell, Hustle Russell,

very working class. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck. We were talking about something. Emotional regulation, how you respond very in a regulation, co regulation. Oh yeah. Okay. So co regulation give some, can I have some examples of what that means in your household specifically? Sure, so I will say it is so much easier to do with my two year old than it is with my eleven year old because they already have a lot of resistance to anything that they consider childish or like babyish, like you're babying me and, and also we didn't do, I, you know, this is relatively new in my household.

The, the example of co regulation, I think I just, I just started reading about that within the past year. So unfortunately, he's done a whole lot of livin But Yeah, with my, with my toddler, it would definitely look like something he's thrown a tantrum, he's on the floor. And so I get down on the floor as well maybe I'm sitting cross legged, maybe I'm like sprawled out.

It was sort of however I can get with them, and then I try to You know, I try to, like, hold his hand, or maybe he wants to be hugged or maybe I do, like, a little, like, blowing. I do some kind of tactile stimulation because that, It's the whole idea behind the bilateral stimulation. It gets the hemispheres working, it gets the regulation sort of moving and then we just sort of do that together.

Another really way easier example to explain might be like some breathing exercises together. Okay. Or just both screaming together. Yeah, okay, so have you ever, have you, okay, have you ever been in a store and seen a mom and a kid just screaming together? I have not. Have you? Mom, sorry for you. I've, well, I've been that parent.

So, yeah, I mean, that's another example of co regulation. They're screaming because they want you to hear them. They're communicating to you something. And they just don't have the proper language skills to, like, be more articulate. So they're screaming at you. And so I just scream at, scream back, you know?

Until they stop. I don't know. It always works like when you bark at a dog and they just like, look at you confused. Have you ever done that? I think I'm a weird individual is what I'm learning. ? Oh, no, not at all. Not all. No. I'm joking. I feel like I, no, I definitely have I, I definitely have. And inside, no, I always say I am just like, my dogs are way smarter than me because like, they can speak so many words of my language and I can't speak like any of theirs.

But anyway, that's, that's a, that's a side note. But no, I hadn't, I hadn't thought about it that way. Admittedly, when you said that, I'm just like, being deep in couples therapy right now, realizing that when we are, hmm, when we don't use our words the way that we should, and just get louder and louder and louder, that it's like hey, listen, look at me, listen to me, acknowledge me thing.

Yes. But it's interesting to, to have that strategy with, with your kiddos. It's really interesting. I, so mostly I've been working with adults for the last four years, which has been interesting because all of my training was with kids, but I have found that actually grownups. Are the same like grown ups are the same as kids.

They just behave honestly more predictably. And sometimes less predictably, right? Because that's when you start running into like, Oh, that's an Interesting way of thinking about things, or like, that's an interesting way to lock your door, you know terrible example. No, that's a good, this is good, yeah, yeah.

I forgot where I was going, so we're just gonna move on. All good, or you can bring me back, I don't know, whatever you prefer. All good, all good, I'm curious of your thoughts on the, I feel like there is an emotionally immature parent to emotionally immature romantic partner pipeline that I don't know if it's talked about enough, and I'm really Well, Freud got like cancelled for talking about it too much, so.

Is that what he was getting at? Because like I think so. You think so? Because I'm just like He couldn't possibly mean that everybody wanted to sleep with their own mother. Like, he had to be speaking metaphorically, and some Chad of the day was just like, Oh, let's, let's shift this narrative, and I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Definitely not saying that you're a woman. That's sort of my take on it. Yeah. That's interesting. See, I am just, I'm so fucking literal that even though I understand that not everyone is as literal as me, and very few people are, especially if they're not autistic I still take people exactly, whatever the words mean, is what it is, to the point where some You're also foreign.

So I don't even know if the literal translations, like, would make total sense to us. I feel like of the time, I mean, he's, I think he's Austrian. And so that's sort of former Soviet bloc. I mean, that's, there's a whole, there's a whole lot going on there. Who knows? Who knows is what I'm saying, but I definitely agree.

I don't think we're the first people to think of this. I think that this is very true. And yeah. I wonder if, like, so I've always wished that my life came with a playbook. Because some people just have it all figured out. Like, some people Even have the same exact script, and I'm just wondering, like, did I go to the bathroom during orientation?

Was I late to class on the first day? Where's my book? Do you think that they have it all figured out, or do you think that they don't think deep enough to understand that they don't fucking have anything figured out? Because I'm gonna go with that side. I think a lot of people need to fucking think a lot more about it.

And that they actually don't have shit figured out. Because if you ask them why, or why they think, or why they do, or why they feel a certain way, a lot of them will just kind of be like, Well, not sure, media. I would, you know? Because I've been told to think that. Yeah, yeah. Whereas, like, you're dissecting everything that you've been told, so you feel like you don't have it figured out, but really, you've gotten more answers than they have, but you feel like you've found less answers, they've, less answers, they feel like they've found more.

Hmm. Fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. Yeah, yeah. Bertrand Russell. No relation. No relation.

I'm, I'm curious growing up, did you have an understanding that, did you have an understanding that both of your parents had emotional immaturity? Or did you at one point think, okay, well it's just the one parent and then find out it was the other? For me, personally, I thought it was just everything was my dad.

I did not understand that where you find one emotionally immature parent, you're probably going to either find another one or someone who is at the end of their fucking rope and wants to be done and maybe is only there because of resources. But yeah, I'm just, I'm curious of your, of your thoughts on that or your experience.

I think for me, it was always a lot more clear that my mom was. Emotionally immature. I think I always demonized my dad's behavior as like, Oh, he's an alcoholic. Did we have the same childhood? He's working class, like he's white trash. Like he doesn't know any better. Yeah. But now I see actually that he was very, Emotionally immature and he is the one yeah, he's the he's the bad romantic partner I was searching for you know, he didn't come to my 10th birthday party.

So I looked for him everywhere. Oh Jesus Christ that bit He didn't come to my 10th birthday party. So I looked for him everywhere. Fuck.